Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
What is a good alternative instance for me that is not supporting Zionism, but also not db0 as I feel some of the communities on feddit.org don’t really have the Zionism problem?
You could use an instance that federates widely (such as lemmy.zip) if you want to be able to interact with as many communities as possible.
Its funny… regardless if its the Web of old, IRC channels, a real life small gardening commune (Kleingartenverein) or now here on the Fediverse - there will always be petty wars to be fought. Perhaps its part of the “human experience”, who knows…
Why do you write like you learned to talk from watching anime?
Whether or not you agree with db0’s decision, framing it as a mere “petty war” is disingenuous.
it’s a “petty war” because nobody that is a part of either side has any real power to change the world, and they are both willing to die on their respective hills just to prove to the other that “you” are wrong.
the fight itself is less than noteworthy that in a few weeks nobody will remember or care unless they stood on their hill.
The members of db0 who don’t want to see and hear Zionists indeed do have the power to change their instance and did, so I don’t get what you mean by saying they don’t have the power to change the world so it’s petty.
did you feel that? I just changed the world.
with my fart.
I mean, if you and I were arguing about whether or not you could fart, and you demonstrated you could fart, yeah.
TIL that containing a zionist infestation is a petty war.
If you count fighting with righteous fury in a little niche corner of the Fediverse which in itself is also a pretty tiny niche corner of the net everything other than a petty war… well, i guess everybody needs a hobby.
Why do you feel offended by the fact that another instance wants to ensure a safe space for its users?
I wouldn’t use the term “offended”… I think “amused” is better fitting, the same I would feel about a conflict in the “Kleingartenverein”
I wouldn’t use the term “offended”… I think “amused” is better fitting, the same I would feel about a conflict in the “Kleingartenverein”
the german wants everyone to know how NOT MAD they are
I wouldn’t use the term “offended”… I think “amused” is better fitting
Lol. You sound incredibly mad
Except that the “Zionist infestation” is a fictional construct in this case. db0 is fighting ghosts.
What’s wrong with calling Hamas terrorists? They have randomly but deliberately killed innocent people. How else would you describe that?
- You, calling the resistance to zionism “terrorists”.
Those who deliberately kill innocent people lose the right to be considered the resistance. They should kill the fucking IDF. But not kids at a music festival or random civilians.
False. Resistance group are still resistance group even when they commit crimes. They still have the right to continue to fight Isrsel currenctly commiting genocide.
You would reject all the resistance mouvements and their sacrifice in previous occupations with your logic
All violence in a settler colony, including the violence perpetrated by and against the colonizers, is the fault of the colonizers.
They should kill the fucking IDF. But not kids at a music festival or random civilians.
You’re right, they should be given:
- advanced military technology and intelligence data
- ways to openly organize without being killed by Mossad, Shin Bet, and the IOF
- perfect control over every person who happens to pick up a gun during any of their operations
to make sure they can more efficiently kill only soldiers.
Since we’re wishing for things, I also wish every “Israeli” genocide supporter would just disappear without the resistance having to do anything.
What a dehumanising and despicable statement. The people murdered by Hamas did nothing wrong. Certainly nothing that could justify their deaths. They did not colonise anything either; they were simply born there.
This conflict really brings out the worst in some people. On the one hand, they blame the murder of innocent people on colonialism, and on the other, on the alleged human shield tactic.
This contextualisation, relativisation and, in some cases, romanticisation of human suffering is absolutely disgusting and must stop.
It’s extremely telling that you read this:
All violence in a settler colony, including the violence perpetrated by and against the colonizers, is the fault of the colonizers.
And concluded that it meant “every ‘Israeli’ who died deserved it”. It actually meant “some of them didn’t deserve to die, but their deaths are still the fault of ‘Israel’ because it’s a colonial project that cause this to happen”.
This conflict really brings out the worst in some people. On the one hand, they blame the murder of innocent people on colonialism, and on the other, on the alleged human shield tactic.
Yeah, it did happen because of colonialism. It’s also extremely telling that you present these statements as equivalent, as if “‘Israel’ is a settler colony” and “Hamas use human shields” are equally valid statements. The first is a very basic, correct analysis of the nature of the state, which the most important early zionists (such as Herzl and Ben Gurion) not only agreed with but were proud of. The second is a racist lie designed to try to excuse genocide.
“Israel” literally uses human shields, by the way. They have actually tied human beings to the front of their vehicles in the past.
Zionists eat shit.
I didn’t notice c/europe was zionists. I just typed israel, I see highly (legitimately) upvoted posts against it.
I’m sure you can find some unsavory stuff, but I haven’t stumbled upon it once.
On the other hand I’ve been confronted to authoritarian bootlickers too many times from ml. If you don’t defederate from them too then you’re not being consistent.
Lemmy.ml has a lot of communists, and dbzer0 is mainly anarchists with some communists as well. We have a lot more in common with each other than with feddit.org, which as we can see has a bad history with Zionism at the admin level. It’s entirely consistent to defederate feddit.org, which dbzer0 voted for as an instance, while remaining federated with Lemmy.ml.
You should read the examples give by db0. They are using the term Zionist for anyone with nuanced takes. The accusations are almost slanderous and feddit was not asked for their side before starting the vote.
Imagine thinking you need a “nuanced take” on whether genocide is bad.
In Germany, disapproving of Israel is considered an unacceptably nuanced take on whether the holocaust was bad. That’s literally the legislative basis that feddit’s moderation is required to comply with. Germany, through it’s anti-Nazi and anti-genocide-denial policies, trapped its people in a situation where they are unable to condemn another genocide.
Authoritarian draconic standards are bullshit. Nuance can be used to overdamp the response to wrongdoing, but its absence can also leave responses underdamped, and assholes can selectively overdamp and underdamp responses in specific categories to serve their own interests. (A clear example is how wind turbines need to go through a lot of red tape to address the concerns of everyone in a wide area while meat industry farms can poison people without issue).
If we want justice, we have to be able to fight against these assholes in both directions - reducing the damping of overdamped systems to allow us to fight genocide effectively even when it doesn’t serve the interests of the powerful, while also increasing the damping of underdamped systems to prevent the powerful from oppressing people using fighting genocide as an excuse.
So yes, we do need nuanced takes on “whether genocide is bad”, sometimes. Other times these “nuanced takes” are indeed ploys to hold back appropriate responses. Which is which is going to depend on the specific situation.
In this case, feddit is complying with German law and policy to go to bat for Zionism, so their “nuance” can get fucked.
The favorite word of Germans is apparently “nuance”, but I think it’s a close competition with “untermensch” and “herrenvolk”.
So many comments jesus. I ain’t reading all that. Free Palestine and Death to Israel.
Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there).
Thank you for recognizing statesia my ego gets a little wonky if it goes unnoticed
This thread even 18 hrs later:
Oh, yeah, “They removed my comment where I’m just an asshole and telling people to kill themselves, they are such zionists 😭”
The fuck is wrong with you guys?
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Dude, how can you be any more based
Such an excellent thread for filling out my block list
Yay anarchists! 👍
Boo zionists! 👎Fuck anarchists, tankies, Zionists, regressives and bigots in general.
Y’all just different shades of the same crazy.
Classical Lemmy.ml comment
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
Very cool of dbzer0.
