we’re comparing it to a system where none of that has been done. it’s sort of a “god of the gaps” situation but the gaps are shaped exactly like pieces in a puzzle. we can extrapolate the form of the proof even if we can’t show it. the same is not true of the other camp.
You say that, but, if the universe has an infinite lifespan (as current models suggest) then we would almost certainly be Boltzmann brains. (There would be an infinite amount of Boltzmann brains, but only a finite number of humans)
I personally believe I am not, and the universe actually exists, rather than a sensory/memory ghost.
surely if the universe has an infinite lifespan there could be an infinite number of humans? for whatever passes as a human at any given time. the two concepts may even overlap.
The logic is that the universe of big bang matter has a limited lifespan. This sets a hard limit on the number of humans via “normal” means.
Boltzmann brains are due to a quirk of quantum mechanics. Matter can come into existence spontaneously. The rate is proportional to the amount (technically the energy content). Given enough time and space, something that would fit the definition of human could spontaneously appear. The odds of this are unbelievably long, but, so long as it’s finitely large, in a true infinite universe it will happen an infinite number of times. It’s a bit of infinity Vs very large number weirdness.
End result is that there will be a large but finite number of “normal” humans, but an infinite number of Boltzmann brain humans. Therefore, the chances of being an actual “normal” human is effectively infinitesimal.
Agreed about it not mattering, day to day. It’s one of those things that is of interest to theoretical physicists, since it might tell us something interesting about the nature of our universe.
It seems more likely in a universe that is infinitely large that brains would come into existence through simpler deterministic processes like they did on earth than random fluctuations no?
Our best ideas on the big bang put the universe as huge, but finite in space. (Way bigger than the observable universe) The question is time. If time is infinite then Boltzmann brains win.
Matter has a finite life, energy differentials run out. Stars run out of fuel. Black holes evaporate. Even protons eventually fall apart to energy. Then there is endless emptiness.
That emptiness would be finite in space, but infinite in time. Without that last boundary, weird things happen to maths.
If you appeal to heat death then you cannot say brains pop back into existence either because “matter has a finite life,” and so it is self-defeating. If brains can pop back into existence due to random fluctuations then surely planets and stars could as well given enough time.
we’re comparing it to a system where none of that has been done. it’s sort of a “god of the gaps” situation but the gaps are shaped exactly like pieces in a puzzle. we can extrapolate the form of the proof even if we can’t show it. the same is not true of the other camp.
You say that, but, if the universe has an infinite lifespan (as current models suggest) then we would almost certainly be Boltzmann brains. (There would be an infinite amount of Boltzmann brains, but only a finite number of humans)
I personally believe I am not, and the universe actually exists, rather than a sensory/memory ghost.
surely if the universe has an infinite lifespan there could be an infinite number of humans? for whatever passes as a human at any given time. the two concepts may even overlap.
not that it matters for the day-to-day, anyway.
The logic is that the universe of big bang matter has a limited lifespan. This sets a hard limit on the number of humans via “normal” means.
Boltzmann brains are due to a quirk of quantum mechanics. Matter can come into existence spontaneously. The rate is proportional to the amount (technically the energy content). Given enough time and space, something that would fit the definition of human could spontaneously appear. The odds of this are unbelievably long, but, so long as it’s finitely large, in a true infinite universe it will happen an infinite number of times. It’s a bit of infinity Vs very large number weirdness.
End result is that there will be a large but finite number of “normal” humans, but an infinite number of Boltzmann brain humans. Therefore, the chances of being an actual “normal” human is effectively infinitesimal.
Agreed about it not mattering, day to day. It’s one of those things that is of interest to theoretical physicists, since it might tell us something interesting about the nature of our universe.
It seems more likely in a universe that is infinitely large that brains would come into existence through simpler deterministic processes like they did on earth than random fluctuations no?
Our best ideas on the big bang put the universe as huge, but finite in space. (Way bigger than the observable universe) The question is time. If time is infinite then Boltzmann brains win.
Matter has a finite life, energy differentials run out. Stars run out of fuel. Black holes evaporate. Even protons eventually fall apart to energy. Then there is endless emptiness.
That emptiness would be finite in space, but infinite in time. Without that last boundary, weird things happen to maths.
If you appeal to heat death then you cannot say brains pop back into existence either because “matter has a finite life,” and so it is self-defeating. If brains can pop back into existence due to random fluctuations then surely planets and stars could as well given enough time.
The energy to spontaneously create a planet is vastly more than a brain. Then again, with the weird maths of infinities, it might play out.
Though to recreate the full illusion would require something closer to the big bang itself.
It’s well into the “here he dragons” realms of science however. Speculating well beyond reliable evidence.
it is very interesting, but it’s also one of those topics that makes anything else in the conversation not matter.
also do note that i said nothing about thinking sensory inputs are illusory, just that belief is not required for things to exist.
Sounds like presuming some place further along in an infinite set. We may still be in an early iteration at the start, as plain as it seems.