Vote manipulation is getting more common. Some recent examples:
While the accounts were banned, the malicious voting activity stuck around.
Should admins have the ability to discard votes, and if so, which admins? Should community mods have that ability? Can you think of any ways that tools like this could be abused?
When banning someone there is the option to remove their content too. It makes sense to include votes in that.
I agree this makes the most sense.
I think votes should honestly be a bit more like old school SlashDot voting, where you had several different types of votes you could leave on a comment like Insightful, Funny, Helpful, etc. Have a few negative ones like Bad Faith Argument, Spam, Advertisement, etc. And also like old school /., you’d have a limited amount of votes you can give. Make them replenish once per day, or have users earn additional votes for receiving positive votes on their comments, or something along those lines.
That would prevent bombing an entire comment thread with downvotes, and provides much-needed context for any given comment’s score.
I miss slashdot. My opinion is that if somebody was banned because of vote related chicanery, then their votes should disappear with them. If it didn’t have anything to do with votes, the votes should stay. Not sure if that’s feasible.
I have felt there needed to be a specific type of vote available only to the original poster and to the users individual reply.
An up/downvote from the OP or the user I responded to I think should be differentiated from another user who isn’t either.
If the OP or commentator votes that should be noted alongside the X number of random votes. It isn’t an anonymous vote, but those votes would be public acknowledgements tied to the user making the public post/comment.
Hard agree on the first part, hard disagree on the second part. Making the system into any sort of rewards system with counterbalancing not only makes the overall system tastier to exploit for Fake Internet Points, but also makes migrating less sellable to new users because their ability or value to interact is reduced or even nullified for a non-deterministic amount of time.
or have users earn additional votes for receiving positive votes on their comments
I found the slashdot system worse than the reddit/lemmy system, if you commented anything that offended the hive mind you got downvoted into oblivion and lost the ability to vote, which obviously ended up reinforcing the hive mind.
I suppose you mean the limitations per diem on voting is what encouraged the hive mind, but even without those limitations Reddit and Lemmy have developed hive minds of their own, with similarly SOHC behaviors.
I would give you an Insightful vote but I don’t have any left. /s
Jokes aside, I like both limiting number of votes per day (or otherwise) and having different kinds of votes. The reason why something is up/down voted can make for a better discussion. But I am agnositc towards renewing votes bases on engagement. On one hand, it would increase engagement, and on the other hand, it could scare lurkers away from otherwise upvoting good content.
Piefed has some comment emojis available. Not sure how they show up on other instances.
I used a "no smoking’ one on your comment. But did i use it properly or just to screw around?
On Mbin, it shows as just a regular upvote. Emoji votes would also be a great change, too! I like the way Misskey-like instances use them.
I wish Mbin had even a fraction of the childlike whimsy that Misskey has.
I also miss old school PHP bulletin board systems, which had similar emoji style votes where each one had different meanings, probably similar to what the op was talking about.
the childlike whimsy that Misskey has.
This, so much. I really wish I could read Japanese, because the really active Misskey instances look genuinely fun to be on. It reminds me a lot of the OMGPOP days, which I miss dearly.
it worked. i also added a no smoking emoji to this comment.
This shows up regularly. It would definitely be an improvement over the current binary system.
Piefed already has the emoji reactions, so that’s a step in that direction
This! Lemmy/Piefed needs metamoderation.
The fact that scores were bounded to a predefined range ([-1, 5]) helped a lot, too.
I like the idea of a weighted rating or star system
Yeah, I haven’t seen that anywhere else. I also liked that each user had a limited amount of votes to cast and thus would (presumably) spend them wisely.
Source: Excellent slashdot karma from when the site was good.
I like this a lot.
IMO if you’re banned from a community, for good reasons or not, you shouldn’t be able to interact at all. If I kick someone out, I don’t want them peeing thru the mail slot.
That’s already the case, the question is what should happen to the votes before the ban
It depends on the reason for banning, no? If the account was banned because it is a bot, it makes sense to remove all their activity including votes.
However, if the account was banned for misbehaviour, I think it makes more sense to remove only the offending posts and directly associated votes. E.g. all votes by the offending account in the thread in which the offence took placewhen did this change? I can’t vote if I’m even tempbanned let alone full banned.
This was about old votes from before the user was banned, specifically for vote manipulation bots
ahhhh, that makes sense.
Uh, votes don’t matter here. That’s one of the improvements over Reddit.
they are visible, they do matter, just not that much as on reddit
But sadly do on piefed
How does piefed treat them differently?
Please elaborate.
Piefed ties your voting habits and how often downvoted so it can flag you if either downvoted too much or down vote up and down sort of equally.
Basically if someone goes against hive mind once or twice can cause getting removed or limited on their instance.
https://join.piefed.social/2024/06/22/piefed-features-for-growing-healthy-communities/
Find people who have low karma
When someone is consistently getting downvoted it’s likely they are a problem. PieFed provides a list of accounts with low karma, sorted by lowest first. Clicking on their user name takes you to their profile which shows all their posts and comments in one place. Every profile has “Ban” and “Ban + Purge” buttons that have instance-wide effects and are only visible to admins.
The ‘Rep’ column is their reputation. As you can see, some people have been downvoted thousands of times. They’re not going to change their ways, are they?
The ‘Reports’ column is how often they’ve been reported, IP shows their IP address and ‘Source’ shows which website linked to PieFed when they initially registered. If an unfriendly forum starts sending floods of toxic people to your instance, spotting them is easy. (In the image above all the accounts are from other instances so we don’t know their IP address or Source). Find people who downvote too much
Once an account has made a few votes, an “attitude” is calculated each time they vote which is the percentage of up votes vs. down votes.
People who downvote more than upvote tend to be the ones who get in fights a lot and say snarky, inflammatory and negative things. If you were at a dinner party, would you want them around? By reviewing the list of people with bad attitudes you can make decisions about who you want to be involved in our communities.
All these accounts have been downvoting a lot (Attitude column) and receiving some downvotes (Rep column). Their profiles are worth a look and then making a decision about whether they’re bringing down the vibe or not.
Every single time I see someone with a low reputation warning, they are toxic users.
It’s an imperfect tool, but it helps identify trolls and sea lions.
Basically if someone goes against hive mind once or twice can cause getting removed or limited on their instance.
Except it appears designed for that not actually detection of the bad users. And does nothing when the toxic users just say on their own instance or comm. (like goat, pugjeasus and with recent db0 votes the feddit.org admin)
If “going against the hivemind” is insulting people (which is what I’ve seen most of the time with users with both warnings), then it works as intended.
Also, giving a lot of downvotes is usually a sign of toxicity, and that’s only based on the user’s actions, not the downvotes they receives.
And does nothing when the toxic users just say on their own instance or comm
As I said, it’s not a perfect tool. To solve toxic users creating their own communities where they reign alone would require admins stepping in. And in the case you mention, when the person is an admin themselves, there isn’t a lot you can imagine, no tool would be able to address that.
giving a lot of downvotes is usually a sign of toxicity
Emphasis mine. When is it not a sign of toxicity? Rules are defined by their exceptions, so I am curious as to how this exception is navigated, if at all?
Essentially someone who posts with high frequency has a capacity to issue more downvotes without compromising this admittedly imperfect tool.
Now I was never really a reddit user, but the problematic karma farming of accounts associated with that place was directly linked to these kinds of tools and metrics, no?
There has been many times on lemmy and reddit where that is not the case, just saying what people didn’t like was enough. From games to politics people love to dogpile. Making a system that helps do that is asinine.
Blaze you do so much for the fediverse but defending this type of system is very disappointing to me.
Jesus Christ I hate that the internet is turning this space into your shitty fucking idea of a dinner party
It’s negative! Oh no better hide that, because some jerks decided being polite is the ultimate Maxim of human expression
as I understand it does not hide negatively voted comments. these are stats, for to moderators, for helping moderation decisions. It’s not automatic.
It’s the concept that it is good to moderate these spaces like that that bothers. As a human I need to be challenged and that includes dealing with perceptibly negative commentary from people. Not just some whitewashed version of some propagandized online personas masquerading as the the “best” of human beings.
Like IRL, any truly gratifying social function includes the possibility of heated debate and some real feelings exchanged, real things happening outside your comfort zone, not politeness theater that reassures us we are the betters in this society. And that’s all to common thinking nowadays, that were agreeable and that’s the best thing you can be like thats what polite type dicks/assholes are. And there’s a reason you turn to online spaces to validate yourselves. Because people dont actually like you enough. And you want to get social stuff done here. Likely you just exchange prefab thinking. And they want to moderate Piefed to keep it whitewashed and that’s insulting to human intelligence and experience IMO
Its not your dinner party just because its your server. And if that’s why you made it. Then I think that’s petty, self-masturbatory and generally uncool shit instead the awesome federated space filled with reasonably unfiltered ideas that it was supposed to have been/could have been.
Semi moderated spaces. Unless its really bad don’t worry about it type deal. Learn to ignore, filter and move on. Just like real life. Ive reported like 3 posts total and I’ve had death threats levied and some insane people saying some intentionally horrible shit. OK, oh well, learned something from it, got stronger, moved forward a better more capable person. Part of life. Its not going away because you removed it from the forum. I feel like unless its really bad. It should be witnessed. Someone got hurt by that? How much? Really? Or is that just playing into some newfound posturing contest? Because that creates a new power structure, to be hurt tactically to invalidate or validate the discussion accordingly and its abused. Overprotection comes with serious downsides, it feels like people here dont understand this concept. You will NEVER be able to handle it by hiding away.
So I appreciate the clarity but I still don’t approve of the sentiment and frankly neither should you. It alienates like 80 percent of the world and all the contributions negative and inflammatory people can make (which is plenty, truly)
Ive needed people to hammer into me, call me on my bullshit, and not elate just cause its perceptually harmful to my wellbeing. That’s the point. It hurt. I have to adjust or accept being a plaything for those that will do that for whatever reason. And that’s no way to conduct yourself. And many others will need that to grow and overcome things (trauma bullshit, groupthink bs, propaganda bs et al.)
I understand wanting to make safe space for people to be in but GYATT DAMN were past the point of that being good when you start talking about making some voices (negative ones, less visible by DESIGN)
People need to be able to make social mistakes and/or be assholes and get called on it and to leave it up as an example not delete it and def not hide it away. Also its helpful if people can learn to see things like that and toughen up a bit so that the world doesn’t hurt us as much. Negative people are part of the world and have plenty to say btw. I LOVE to see those kinds of comments so this is bullshit from that POV. You can jerk off each other as much as you want but thats still gonna be true.
Guess its time to plan out a proper server and compete at that level. Cause this circlejerking shit is just a bit too much like Reddit. And I have the technical skill just don’t want to have to put in that level of effort I guess.
Sort of sorry for the essay here. Sort of not. Obviously felt it was necessary. Not all positivity is good positivity. And I think negative people and down voters should be equal on their own merits (tho with moderating decisions it might be considered it should be comment and context aware not to label them as a “bad person” so your not allowed here type groupthinking) Each comment moderated equally on its merits. Always and forever. (unless specifically necessary due to some incredibly remarkable circumstance and even then be SUPER careful
yes but these stats highlight those that are only participating or creating heated debates. users that are consistently downvoted, but also users who are giving lots of downvotes
No one is here for the internet points. Why worry about imaginary karma?
Because it affects visibility of content.
Read OP’s post, they’re worrying about manipulation, not karma whoring or harassment.
Stuff like bots mass up or downvoting a post to promote or hide it.
Downvotes don’t seem to be much of a factor in post visibility, at least in scaled mode?
They are in /hot/, which is likely to be vastly more common than scaled.
Not if you sort be New.
If we expect to be remotely large, sorting by new only is infeasible.
Voting is an indicator of agreement/disagreement and will influence how people feel about a certain post.
Keep in mind, most people are just trying to look good in front of their peers.
It’s literally how what you see is regulated. If a company X wanted to hide products from company Y, they could make bots to auto-downvote Y products and upvotes X products.
Granted, I feel like more commonly vote manipulation is done for geopolitical reasons rather than astroturfing
Because at least on piefed you get punished if downvoted too much
Yes piefed is known to exact CCP-style hidden moderation.
It’s a shame honestly, I feel like Piefed without up/downvotes at all would work better. No algorithm, thanks.
https://piefed.blahaj.zone/ already has downvotes disabled, disabling the reputation warning features as well (you can’t get bad attitude if you can’t give downvotes)
Piefed doesn’t incorporate any of this into an algorithm.
Eh, it still has some good things and in theory since this is FOSS someone could just, like, fork it and remove the whole shadow cabal moderation thingy.
Well, I’m here for the internet points. I’m a hoarder, so I like collecting stuff, internet points included.
You must love cookie banners 😋
@rimu@piefed.social @wjs018@piefed.social a good topic to developp :)
As much as it pains me, I think the only solution to vote manipulation is to disable downvotes. Mind you, I don’t like it - I think downvotes are useful in a healthy self-governing community - but here’s my rationale as to why it’s the only solution:
- The goal of negative vote manipulation is to remove visibility from content. For that, the first few hours of the post’s or comment’s lifetime are critical. Sure, a mod can remove the downvotes, but it would likely be done after the content’s attention window is over, so the damage would be done. [1]
- Positive brigading (artificial boosting of content) is another problem, but out of scope of this post. I consider it to be in the “dealing with spam” category.
- As I’m writing this, it comes to mind that perhaps we can selectively disable downvotes? Just like some instances don’t allow fresh accounts to post, perhaps something similar can be done for downvoting. Maybe it can also be extended to accounts below a certain up- to downvote ratio, to avoid mass downvoters.
Gog disabled down votes on its forum and now there’s a bot up voting every reply in derailed threads. Mass up voting can also be a problem in creative hands.
I have to say, I’ve always admired the Stack exchange system. Yes, it’s a Karma-like system, and it’s obviously not perfect, but it means that accounts always start with very little abilities, most notably that they’re not able to downvote yet. And when those accounts do get the ability to downvote (which doesn’t come all too quickly), it costs a certain amount of their “reputation”, which makes them think twice about downvoting.
PieFed, at the discretion of community mods, offers restriction of voting to only subscribed community members. This limits drive-by downvoting from All, where people would not have read the community rules (which in PieFed are repeated in their entirety at the bottom of every post from that community).
It also offers restriction of voting to only “trusted” instances, thereby introducing a third category between the binary federation vs. defederation.
I have also seen communities on PieFed that disable downvoting entirely, even to subscribed members, even on the same instance.
Community mods can enable or disable these settings at will iirc.
Vote manipulation is done in both directions
I know? I didn’t say it didn’t happen, I said that positive vote manipulation can more easily be addressed with spam prevention measures.
But your (one of) solution is to kill half of the voting system to solve half of the vote manipulation. It’s like solving spam by turning off comments. I don’t think that is going to be a popular opinion
That’s not killing half the voting system to solve half of the vote manipulation. Downvotes do not even get used at the same ratio as upvotes. I’m sure someone can pull numbers, but I’d roughly estimate that in most communities no more than 10% of votes are downvotes. And even if they were, I’m not sure you quite parsed my full comment.
- I stated very early that I don’t specifically like disabling downvotes.
- I stated why I think that post-hoc remediations will not work.
- I proposed a potential compromise which can be used to mitigate abuse without a blanket downvote ban.
Blocking voting on fresh accounts is not a novel idea. As another commenter said, it’s the system used on Stack Overflow. Blocking all downvotes is not even the goal. The goal is to make brigading not worth the effort. The worst case scenario is that all downvotes get disabled (which still works, despite its unpopularity - it’s been implemented by instances like beehaw). But in the end, that’s just a baseline. It can be improved, and I like to believe that I was quite clear on that in my first comment.
I suppose that would address only a part of the issue and there are other, less intrusive ways to mitigate the effects of malicious early down voting. For instance, early down votes could be weighed less.
Or disabled until a certain number of upvotes are reached. It could potentially be disabled again of upvotes falls down under the threshold again. Or just have them time gated.
For positive voting you could look at how quickly accounts upvote after a post has been made, combined with how new they are, and whether they have comments or not (maybe also if those comments seem AI-generated).
I think the other place tried to solve this by weighing a certain number of votes up or down.
So if a post got 10 upvotes, the 11th would weigh less in the algorithm, meaning that it was harder to burry something that was already perceived as upvotable. If a post of comment got 5 downvotes, the 6th etc would “weigh” less in the algorithm making it harder to bury posts just by downvoting them. They also labeled posts as things like “controversial”, “popular” etc.
I don’t know that this is a solution, in part because our “algorithm” doesn’t really function on a karma system, and in part because I don’t have the kind of knowledge it takes to understand the finer details of how this arm of the fediverse works under the hood.
But I do like the idea of limiting the number of downvotes an account can make per day, and also perhaps automodding accounts that do upvotes or downvotes at a rate that a human user couldn’t.
oy vey, @goferking0@lemmy.sdf.org it’s your time to shine!
tell threadiverse your solution to this!Do away with voting altogether and force people to think for themselves instead of just following the easily manipulated herd. Always sort by New Comments with no other options so the only things at the top are active discussions.
This also would make it so lurkers can’t influence the conversations they don’t actively participate in.
This is just in fundamental contradiction to how the Forumverse works. No content regarded as highly relevant and interesting can be filtered via your system and sorting by /new/ on a wider scale just means that a new post you make can be completely missed if no-one notices it.
What’s the virtue of everyone taking part in a conversation even when they have nothing substantive to add?
Who said you have to participate? Not interested? Move on.
What is the virtue in liking or disliking a thing you’re not going to otherwise engage with? Why should others dictate what you are more likely to actually see?
Who said they weren’t interested? Your entire premise is based on them being interested.
So again, what’s the virtue in everybody having to comment even if they don’t have some substantive to say?
Who said they weren’t interested? Your entire premise is based on them being interested.
I don’t even know how you came to this conclusion. If you’re not interested in the discussion, and you’re not going to participate in it, why should you get to influence how others may see the content by voting on it and affecting its visibility? That’s the premise.
Buddy I don’t care how hard you’re trying I’m not going to let you move the goal posts. Answer the original question.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but since that isn’t what I said, implied, or alluded to, and what you asked is literally the exact opposite of what I was suggesting, your question is fucking stupid and maybe you should learn how to read English if you’re going to join in a conversation written in it.
